IIM selection process
does a manager need to be analytically super smart? is it an absolute necessity that he/she has to crunch numbers accurately and probably much faster than even a super-computer? this is what one will tend to beleive if he/she looks at the selection process of the IIMs. recently I learnt that a CAT score of 95 percentile won't take you even near the gates of these prestigious institutions. I think its ridiculous to filter out people just based on an analytical test. I'm not having any reservations against the ones that get more than 98 percentile in this test...I mean they are good. but who knows, there might be people who can't do well on this test but still become a really good manager. I think its unfair to screen them based on the performance on a single test.
there are people who can crack any test, lot of us cannot even compete with them. its like me against a professional assassin...maybe I can shoot accurately, but not like a pro, definitely no.
IIMs are not IITs, then why bother about technical and analytical skills. they should consider the whole application...instead of just screening blindly.
23 Comments:
Hit the nail on the head, but you know what excuse they are likely to say "we have 500 applicants for every seat". In other words, what they are not willing to admit is that just as JEE is, CAT is also a filtering process, not an evaluation per se :-)
I also read the recent articles. The selection process is not solely based on the CAT entrance exam. It is a combination of the entrance exam plus the candidate's academic background and work experience. Each IIM has its own process which is a well guarded secret. They also want to maintain a mix of boys , girls, various academic, regional backgrounds etc so that the class can be as diverse as possible.
If entrance exam is the only measuring rod then people getting 98% in the entrance exam should get a call from all the IIM's for the Group Discussion and Personal Interview. I managed to get a interview call from 4 of them and finally made it to 2 of them.
I do agree that the admission procedure needs to be broadbased. 150,000 people are appearing for the CAT exams every year and they are competing for 1500 seats in the 6 IIM's. Considering the time and effort I think it is not easy for the IIM's to do an in-depth screening of all the 150,000 applications. Hence they are sticking to this, for want of a better process.
The B-schools in the west receive far lesser application and their admission rate is about 1 out of 10.
thennavan, I knew that would come :)
Kaps, I accept your argument. I dunno but do you know of anyone that got a 90% and still managed to get a call? in my opinion even the people in the 70th percentile should get a call.
its hard to select one in a 100, but why can't we increase the number of seats. after all we are the second most populous nation, so why not have more learned professionals?
I don't think I wud hv got 95 - 98 percentile to get a call. I wud hv been on the lower side....got calls from B, C, L & I.....was able to convert B (thru waiting list :-)) & I.....finally joined B.
Now there is some talk of all the IIM's increasing the number of seats from 200 to about 300. They don't hv the infrastructure to accomodate more students. The only way out is to open more such B-schools.
if everyone takes in only the 95+ candidates, where wd guys like me go? :)
Personally I dont think these tests are designed for potential managers..
Its just a way to eliminate people I guess..and not a very good way to do it..Mostly if u practice enuf u can clear the test.
In this regard I think the company TCS has a good way to select candidates.
This a potential Pandora's box. I personally think, no offense to anyone that the IIM selection process is flawed in that they permit a *significant* portion of fresh grads to their program. While they strive to provide a mix as kaps said, I think they need to definitely increase the work experience requirements.
Most if not all of the top MBA schools require no less than 48 months of solid work experience and prefer you having managed atleast one other person.
I was one of those dreamers who wanted to do an MBA right out of college. Today, after having spent 3+ years working, I understand the significance of having work experience behind you to do an MBA. So now, whenever I get to do my MBA I will be properly prepared!
Hey I dont know much about the CAT selection process, but I think not all folks who clear CAT get into IIMs, the interview is the next hurdle.
CAT is a screening process to the next step the interviews, where in they test the person's other skills, required for managment.
How else will they filter out students.
Sorry if I am talking total nonsense :)
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To rephrase what Saranya has said...CAT is an elimination process whereas the Group Discussion and Personal Interviews (GD & PI) constitutes the selection process.
More than 70% of the MBA students are from engineering background and quite a lot of them are freshers. Given the striking similarities it is quite difficult to differentiate between the various candidates and hence CAT is used as the common measuring rod (for want of a better screening process).
In the last 5 years, there has been a marked change in the admission process and one can see the increase in the rate of experienced candidates. In my junior batch more than 50% of the batch had more than 2 years experience. To accomodate the higher ratio of experienced students the IIM's have also flagged of lateral placements (this concept was non-existent 5 years ago).
Given the way Indian education system works it is difficult to expect B-schools to force minimum experience of 48 months...it will take a long time for us to reach there. However B-schools like ISB Hyderabad are already operating in that space.
chakra, namma ellam veetla utkaara venduyathu dhaan :)
prabha, thats exactly what I'm talking about, these tests are not for managers.
Ranga, well said. after having worked for 2 yrs, now I too feel the need for experience in dealing businesses, projects and people. well there are exceptional people, but those are just exceptions :)
Saranya, sure the interview tests the person's capabilities. but the damage has already been done. you have already eliminated scores of people based on a single test.
Kaps, I can understand the situation. but I think a lot of people still consider an MBA to be another professional qualification, like an MCA. thats why experience is much appreciated here. atleast the trend is changing, I'm glad about that.
jagan, this is exactly the reason why univs in the US do the selection process over a period of time. but we just schedule the whole selection process for a couple of months. Why not make the CAT exam available anytime, instead of offering it once a year. Have more tests, have more slection centers and make it a yr round job. after all these are the nations best ones, it'll definitely be worth that effort.
And finally, please increase the number of seats. it won't compromise quality.
Saranyan, ungalukku weekend pozhuthu pogallainnaa and if you want to get some ego satisfaction :-), you can visit ChennaiCentral and see my latest post :-)
I am against increasing the number of seats. It will only dilute the value of MBA professionals in the country. Like it or not, the number of available professional degree slots should be controlled by the industrial demand so that the value of the professional degree holders caters to the natural supply-demand aspect of the industry. Otherwise if we increase the number of seats then we will only see dilution in the value(atleast subtle if not drastic) of the degree.
As an illustration, just look at the state of Engineering degree holders in India now. B.E in India today is suely not as charmful as what B.E used to be say 20 years ago.
I think the CAT process is the correct way.The CAT examines other skill sets like choosing the right qns to attempt and quick common sense and so on.On an average the quants cut off is somewhere like 15 or 20 on forty.ITs the ones who make correct choices that get through.Mandatory Work experience is a debatable issue but it is a great plus
Hi saranyan, i guess we are turing into a branded culture rapidly now...I recently felt the effects when I joined my job..we are from a well-known journalism college in chennai and an entire batch of 9-10 people have been recruited from our batch into this org..there were few others from other institutes who were completely sidelined on the orientation day. This hurts me a lot because you can never assess a person's worth by simply seeing his brand..I have lived with my batchmates for a year so I can tell that most of them are weird in some way or the other. But then I cannot deny that I liked the treatment that we received..but on the other hand I would have been really happy, had everyone been treated equally.
I think the process is a true way to screen people..though I got 97%, I didnt get calls from amy of the IIM....jus the final percentile is not the criterion..u have to clear sectional cut-offs, which test u in language and data interpretation..the test itself is a way to analyse not ur knowledge but ur problem solving skills at crucnh times and ur resource allocation skills...it is not a test for knowledge...it is a test for ability to see thru the difficulty levels of problems and cater to easier ones, thereby clearing the sectional cut-offs..I missed my mathematice cut-off by a mere .2 percentile...but then, thats what I am in a 2 hr test..those who were better allocators than me got it...
Saranyan, as far as my understanding goes, the selection process of IIM varies from one IIM to the other and nobody really knows on what basis it is done. I have a couple of my friends who gave their CAT and one of them who actually is doing his pg with one of the IIMs. The calls that they get is not just based on the percentile score, I guess it also depends on the work ex and the previous educational background and stuff..
However, it also needs to be said that, great managers needn't always come out of the IIMs. But i guess at some point, we need to accept that a majority of guys who pass out of IIMs are capable of "thinking on their feet" and don't make a theory out of practical situations.
Saranyan,
You are spot on.
The way i see it - Management is as much an art as it is analytical.
You can learn all the ingredients of a straight drive but still we need a Sachin to execute it to perfection.
My Manager is actually a Commerce PG. He is one of the best brains in Software Architecture and Design and a very good Manager too.
We can always say there are exceptions. But frankly they look like exceptions because not many were determined enough and bold enough to traverse such a career path.
I know companies like Cisco in US had great managers who were graduates in subjects as esoteric as linguistics. They still made great managers. I do know MBA grads who are at best jerks.
It is we Indians who are fixated with Brands.
If management is all about analytical skills then probably i would go for a Maths/Stat/Operations Research or Economics post graduates or doctorates or a CA who can be a whiz in numbers than these MBAs when i start a business.
And also i think its not a coincidence that all the supposed true leaders in the corporate world be it Ellison or Gates or our own Ambani or Arun Jain of Polaris are basically people who were wise enough to avoid the pitfalls of MBA mania.
Narayana Murthy was not an MBA either.
I read a blog of an IIM alumni who says all his IIM-B exposure and the skills he learned has made him risk averse.
If you can't handle risk and uncertainty in personal career, we can as well forget about corporate leadership. And we thought they will rule the corporate world one day.
Leadership requires character.
At best I would say leadership is independent of an MBA Degree.
Then why all the fuss?
I guess we know the answer. Corporate biggies dont have the time to groom a person to be a manager which needs time and discipline.
So they go for a quick fix solution.
They would rather pay a few lakhs extra and hire an MBA who is perceived as the know-all...
I read an article in http://www.changethis.com by Malcolm Gladwell on this 'Talent Myth'. These talented MBAs have brought down many a company. Enron is one such example.
Boss... In my batch, I know a guy who got through with 90 percentile. He had 8 years work ex. though. :-)
What "merit" are we talking of anyway ? Scores in entrance exams at age of 17?
Take the claim of "merit based" entrance to all IIMs and dozens of other institutes.
The CAT exam is based on the SAT exam in the USA . It has been proved beyond doubt that the SAT test is culturally biased . Blacks and hispanics do poorly at it year after year .
If a student who is eligible for admission to IIM on the basis of his CAT score, were to take the same CAT exam in which he/she cleared in a language that he/she did not understand then he/she would be at a disadvantage compared to someone who was schooled in that language . Not knowing that language does not mean you lack the capacity to clear that exam.
Approximately 25 % of CAT test is about English! Another 25 % is about English Comprehension!!!! There you are !!!! About 50 % so called aptitude test is a hoax for someone who is from a non-english speaking background .
This is how the CAT like the SAT is discriminatory .
See the full form of SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test . The problem is aptitude testing is not so simple . There is no test on earth which can reliably tests aptitude .
Aptitude tests such as the SAT have a historical tie to the concept of innate mental abilities and the belief that such abilities can be defined and meaningfully measured. Neither notion has been supported by modern research. Few scientists who have considered these matters seriously would argue that aptitude tests such as the SAT provide a true measure of intellectual abilities.
It was found that people could be coached to better their scores at SAT . The name SAT …Scholastic Aptitude Test could not be correct . So under such valid criticism the name was changed to Scholastic Assessment Test, since a test that can be coached clearly did not measure inherent "scholastic aptitude", but was influenced largely by what the test subject had learned in school. Even the College Board which conducts the SAT has beaten a hasty retreat.This was a major theoretical retreat by the College Board conducting SAT, which had previously maintained that the test measured inherent aptitude and was free of bias.
About ten years back , however, even the redundancy of the term assessment test was recognized and the name was changed to the neutral, and non-descriptive, SAT. At the time, the College Board announced, "Please note that SAT is not an initialism. It does not stand for anything."
The framers of these SAT tests assumed that intelligence was a unitary inherited attribute, that it was not subject to change over a lifetime, and that it could be measured and individuals could be ranked and assigned their place in society accordingly. The SAT evolved from these questionable assumptions about human talent and potential.
More and more people are questioning the validity of SAT . In the past MENSA used to accept high SAT score individuals . For the past decade it has stopped accepting SAT scores .
More and more people are questioning the validity of SAT . In the past MENSA used to accept high SAT score individuals . For the past decade it has stopped accepting SAT scores .
The whole exercise of deciding merit based on CAT scores discriminates against those from lower socio-economic status.
Though many non-IIM institutes have started accepting CAT scores, the application fee of these institutes is still inexplicably high.
The CAT is primarily an exam of Math and English. Logical and Analytical Reasoning is nearly absent (except for some verbal reasoning which again depends on knowing English well!!!!).
CAT is a clever way to keep those from lower socio-economic strata away Institutes funded with tax payers money .
So claims of “Merit” based on CAT scores is hollow and discriminatory against those of lower socio-economic strata.
Dhirubhai Ambani had a poor command over English . He would not have made it through CAT. So what "merit" are we talking of?
That is the great info, i always dream of going into IIM. Get the updated news here on IIM Selection process http://www.coursesmba.com/blog/cat-2016-schedule-exam-pattern-syllabus/
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